Excellent analysis. It was interesting being in the chat, in which one could pick up subtle signs of panic among the left-leaning participants as the debate went on, and I even didn't stick around for the whole thing. At the point I departed, most of the comments were about Trump's lies and a bit of argument about whether Trump actually did/said the things Biden accused him of. Your comments were always spot on.
Et tu Gabe? Come on it wasn’t a great debate but Joe got better as it went along. And Joe was NOT showing signs of dementia. He was showing signs of trying to get out as many facts as possible as quickly as possible while struggling with his stutter. And when was the last time any incumbent President faced someone forcefully spewing blatant lies without any real time fact checking. Did none of the pundits notice trump repeating the same lies over and over again no matter what question he was asked?
Joe Biden is not an old man with dubious self control. Folks are blowing this totally out of proportion and Joe Biden will only lose if we allow the so called pundits and average people without medical or psychological expertise making “diagnoses” to convince to abandon Joe. Joe is showing us that he absolutely CAN run the country because he is actually doing so in a professional, sane and tempered manner.
Strongly recommend folks also read Dr Heather Cox Richardson’s post on the subject
Before we all give up on Biden, read Heather Cox Richardson's Letters from an American column from last night (you can find here on Substack). Her take on this was more measured that the current Democratic hysteria.
I do think Dems have to acknowledge the corner they've paintedthemselves into. I've worked in healthcare for 30 years -in neurology for several of them- and to me Biden looked parkinsonian. That means to sound founder and walk without shuffling medications need to be considered. Medications that have side effects of impulsively. We have more nuclear weapons than any country in the world and voters are left we 2 old men with dubious self control.
As someone who had two relatives with extended periods of decline, including one with Parkinson's, I have to agree (especially his voice--I don't believe for a minute that he has a cold). A comment from a friend whose mother also suffered dementia really stuck with me: At each point in the decline, you look back to the previous points and realize that things were much worse then than you realized. If you know someone (I'm thinking of Jill here, mostly), it is easy to fill in the gaps and not realize just how bad off someone is. I think something like the same thing might be going on here; Biden's been around so long that, collectively, we're filling in the gaps, but in fact he's in pretty bad shape. I actually feel really badly for Jill and the rest of Joe's family.
Agreed. I was thinking during the debate that Pk patients might be cognitively fine but really if he were my patient and not my president I would be thinking that pk patients have very poor insight. That their families must provide that for them
I posted this last night at That's Another Fine Mess:
Once again, the Cretin News Network and the overage yuppies still stupid enough to continue to work there lived down to my expectations: no mic control, no holding El Jefe Del Mar A Lardo to the rules, and Alex Wagner proved how desperate she is not to get dropped at MSNBC like happened back in 2008 (I just canceled recording her show). I’ll laugh if he wins and they and the rest of the DC Press Corpse find themselves looking out from the wrong side of the barbed wire fence at the tent city in West Texas they’re confined to. They all fucking well deserve it, but we don’t.
Once again, I will say that if the DC Press Corpse and the rest of the cable news yuppies and the “Democratic Consultants” had been in the Navy between December 7, 1941 and June 4, 1942, someone would have thrown their useless asses overboard.
Oh, it’s terible! The enemy is winning! Whatever can we do??? Well, as Dick Best told me, “We did our jobs and didn’t think about losing because it was unthinkable.” And then on June 4, 1942, they cut out the heart of the Japanese in six deadly minutes.
Too many Americans act like professional-level nitwits. They’re the reason we didn’t get The GI Bill For Everybody in the Second New Deal that didn’t happen because they were (sniff, sniff, boo hoo) “disappointed” by the way the war had been going, so they didn’t show up to vote on the first Tuesday in November 1942…
Four days before the US Army landed in North Africa. Step One on the hard-fought road to Normandy.
And let me tell you from ten years’ experience as a “professional Democrat” that the term “Democratic Consultant” is a two word quickie for “over-educated otherwise-unemployable moron who’s a legend in his own mind”.
I agree completely with what Josh Marshall wrote to a TPM subscriber:
“It sucked. It was brutal. But this is where we are. And a million people in history have been in suck and brutal situations and they pushed forward. Maybe they were in a battle and then they all died. Or maybe that was the moment when they made the critical decision to pull together and they won. This is living in history where we don’t know which story we’re in. That’s life. It provides an immense psychic relief to break the existential glass and say he should withdraw. Okay, then what? This is where we are and we have to keep fighting because that’s the only realistic choice we have.”
For consideration by the doomsayers, a few excerpts from Professor Heather Cox Richardson:
[...] as Monique Pressley put it, “The proof of Biden’s ability to run the country is the fact that he is running it. Successfully. Not a debate performance against a pathological lying sociopath.”
"Of far more lasting importance than this one night is the clear evidence that stage performance has trumped substance in political coverage in our era. Nine years after Trump launched his first campaign, the media continues to let him call the shots."
"A much bigger deal is what it says that the television media and pundits so completely bought into Trump’s performance. They appear to have accepted Trump’s framing of the event—that he is dominant—so fully that the fact Trump unleashed a flood of lies and non-sequiturs simply didn’t register. And, since the format established that the CNN journalists running the debate did not challenge anything either candidate said, and Dale’s fact-checking spot came long after the debate ended, the takeaway of the event was a focus on Biden’s age rather than on Trump’s inability to tell the truth or form a coherent thought.
At the end of the evening, pundits were calling not for Trump—a man liable for sexual assault and business fraud, convicted of 34 felonies, under three other indictments, who lied pathologically—to step down, but for Biden to step down…because he looked and sounded old. At 81, Biden is indeed old, but that does not distinguish him much from Trump, who is 78 and whose inability to answer a question should raise concerns about his mental acuity."
And if you're still reading, one additional point made by Dr. Richardson:
"This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.
There are ways to combat the Gish gallop—by calling it out for what it is, among other ways—but Biden retreated to trying to give the three pieces of evidence that established his own credentials on the point at hand. His command of those points was notable, but the difference between how he sounded at the debate and how he sounded on stage at a rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, just an hour afterward suggested that the technique worked on him."
Thank you for presenting both sides fairly, equally, and without your opinion. If you can continue to do that during this contentious election, you can do anything! I appreciate you and your work!
Just remember that Biden is thinking about his responses while Trump is just regurgitating the same old lies he's been saying for years. That's why Trump didn't have to prepare for the debate. His lines are already memorized while Biden still has a brain to think with and answer the questions. Also, Trump never answered any of the questions even when prompted several times!
Like one of the individuals who commented, I also eagerly awaited your email on the day after the debate. As expected, your reporting was fair and measured. I don’t think you were dooming Biden’s campaign nor were you projecting Trump’s victory. You provided historical context with regard to debate performances and astute analysis of options going forward for both candidates. You were clear that nothing has been sealed for either campaign.
The day after, Biden came back with a vengeance and Trump gave us more Trump, riding his perceived wave of triumph. I look forward to your reporting on that.
I think we can all agree that it’s still anyone’s race. Let’s hope Biden gives a much better performance in September.
I have never voted for a Democratic presidential candidate.
And I never have, and never will, vote for Trump.
And I agree that Biden looked so old.
But I was amazed that he kept it up for the full duration.
90 minutes of being “on” in front of just a few hundred people would absolutely wear out most folks of any age.
I know he is a career politician, but I was impressed that in that setting he didn’t completely wilt by the end.
And I thought that he was able to put a lot of information into most of his answers. I know that isn’t how you “win” debates (insert eye roll), but as a non supporter I thought his mental faculties were better than I expected.
Who among us has never misspoken?
If you look at the information he stated, not the delivery, then it’s really quite an amazing display of memory. More than I would have expected.
I challenge anybody to remember all of what he said.
First thing I did this morning was to check to see what you had to say about the debate. Good job, Gabe!
Great job last night Gabe! Enjoyed the live chat!
Excellent analysis. It was interesting being in the chat, in which one could pick up subtle signs of panic among the left-leaning participants as the debate went on, and I even didn't stick around for the whole thing. At the point I departed, most of the comments were about Trump's lies and a bit of argument about whether Trump actually did/said the things Biden accused him of. Your comments were always spot on.
Et tu Gabe? Come on it wasn’t a great debate but Joe got better as it went along. And Joe was NOT showing signs of dementia. He was showing signs of trying to get out as many facts as possible as quickly as possible while struggling with his stutter. And when was the last time any incumbent President faced someone forcefully spewing blatant lies without any real time fact checking. Did none of the pundits notice trump repeating the same lies over and over again no matter what question he was asked?
Joe Biden is not an old man with dubious self control. Folks are blowing this totally out of proportion and Joe Biden will only lose if we allow the so called pundits and average people without medical or psychological expertise making “diagnoses” to convince to abandon Joe. Joe is showing us that he absolutely CAN run the country because he is actually doing so in a professional, sane and tempered manner.
Strongly recommend folks also read Dr Heather Cox Richardson’s post on the subject
https://open.substack.com/pub/heathercoxrichardson/p/june-27-2024?
Before we all give up on Biden, read Heather Cox Richardson's Letters from an American column from last night (you can find here on Substack). Her take on this was more measured that the current Democratic hysteria.
https://open.substack.com/pub/heathercoxrichardson/p/june-27-2024?
I do think Dems have to acknowledge the corner they've paintedthemselves into. I've worked in healthcare for 30 years -in neurology for several of them- and to me Biden looked parkinsonian. That means to sound founder and walk without shuffling medications need to be considered. Medications that have side effects of impulsively. We have more nuclear weapons than any country in the world and voters are left we 2 old men with dubious self control.
As someone who had two relatives with extended periods of decline, including one with Parkinson's, I have to agree (especially his voice--I don't believe for a minute that he has a cold). A comment from a friend whose mother also suffered dementia really stuck with me: At each point in the decline, you look back to the previous points and realize that things were much worse then than you realized. If you know someone (I'm thinking of Jill here, mostly), it is easy to fill in the gaps and not realize just how bad off someone is. I think something like the same thing might be going on here; Biden's been around so long that, collectively, we're filling in the gaps, but in fact he's in pretty bad shape. I actually feel really badly for Jill and the rest of Joe's family.
Agreed. I was thinking during the debate that Pk patients might be cognitively fine but really if he were my patient and not my president I would be thinking that pk patients have very poor insight. That their families must provide that for them
Excellent analysis. Thank you.
I posted this last night at That's Another Fine Mess:
Once again, the Cretin News Network and the overage yuppies still stupid enough to continue to work there lived down to my expectations: no mic control, no holding El Jefe Del Mar A Lardo to the rules, and Alex Wagner proved how desperate she is not to get dropped at MSNBC like happened back in 2008 (I just canceled recording her show). I’ll laugh if he wins and they and the rest of the DC Press Corpse find themselves looking out from the wrong side of the barbed wire fence at the tent city in West Texas they’re confined to. They all fucking well deserve it, but we don’t.
Once again, I will say that if the DC Press Corpse and the rest of the cable news yuppies and the “Democratic Consultants” had been in the Navy between December 7, 1941 and June 4, 1942, someone would have thrown their useless asses overboard.
Oh, it’s terible! The enemy is winning! Whatever can we do??? Well, as Dick Best told me, “We did our jobs and didn’t think about losing because it was unthinkable.” And then on June 4, 1942, they cut out the heart of the Japanese in six deadly minutes.
Too many Americans act like professional-level nitwits. They’re the reason we didn’t get The GI Bill For Everybody in the Second New Deal that didn’t happen because they were (sniff, sniff, boo hoo) “disappointed” by the way the war had been going, so they didn’t show up to vote on the first Tuesday in November 1942…
Four days before the US Army landed in North Africa. Step One on the hard-fought road to Normandy.
And let me tell you from ten years’ experience as a “professional Democrat” that the term “Democratic Consultant” is a two word quickie for “over-educated otherwise-unemployable moron who’s a legend in his own mind”.
I agree completely with what Josh Marshall wrote to a TPM subscriber:
“It sucked. It was brutal. But this is where we are. And a million people in history have been in suck and brutal situations and they pushed forward. Maybe they were in a battle and then they all died. Or maybe that was the moment when they made the critical decision to pull together and they won. This is living in history where we don’t know which story we’re in. That’s life. It provides an immense psychic relief to break the existential glass and say he should withdraw. Okay, then what? This is where we are and we have to keep fighting because that’s the only realistic choice we have.”
We. Have. To. Keep. Fighting. Because. That’s. The. Only. Realistic. Choice. We. Have.
Just like the guys on the carriers at Midway who tore the heart out of the enemy after six months of retreat and defeat.
For consideration by the doomsayers, a few excerpts from Professor Heather Cox Richardson:
[...] as Monique Pressley put it, “The proof of Biden’s ability to run the country is the fact that he is running it. Successfully. Not a debate performance against a pathological lying sociopath.”
"Of far more lasting importance than this one night is the clear evidence that stage performance has trumped substance in political coverage in our era. Nine years after Trump launched his first campaign, the media continues to let him call the shots."
"A much bigger deal is what it says that the television media and pundits so completely bought into Trump’s performance. They appear to have accepted Trump’s framing of the event—that he is dominant—so fully that the fact Trump unleashed a flood of lies and non-sequiturs simply didn’t register. And, since the format established that the CNN journalists running the debate did not challenge anything either candidate said, and Dale’s fact-checking spot came long after the debate ended, the takeaway of the event was a focus on Biden’s age rather than on Trump’s inability to tell the truth or form a coherent thought.
At the end of the evening, pundits were calling not for Trump—a man liable for sexual assault and business fraud, convicted of 34 felonies, under three other indictments, who lied pathologically—to step down, but for Biden to step down…because he looked and sounded old. At 81, Biden is indeed old, but that does not distinguish him much from Trump, who is 78 and whose inability to answer a question should raise concerns about his mental acuity."
And if you're still reading, one additional point made by Dr. Richardson:
"This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.
It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.
There are ways to combat the Gish gallop—by calling it out for what it is, among other ways—but Biden retreated to trying to give the three pieces of evidence that established his own credentials on the point at hand. His command of those points was notable, but the difference between how he sounded at the debate and how he sounded on stage at a rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, just an hour afterward suggested that the technique worked on him."
Full text on Dr. Richardson's Substack:
https://open.substack.com/pub/heathercoxrichardson/p/june-27-2024?
The Democrats had four years to groom a successor. The chickens are coming home to roost.
Best analysis I have yet to read.
Thank you for presenting both sides fairly, equally, and without your opinion. If you can continue to do that during this contentious election, you can do anything! I appreciate you and your work!
Just remember that Biden is thinking about his responses while Trump is just regurgitating the same old lies he's been saying for years. That's why Trump didn't have to prepare for the debate. His lines are already memorized while Biden still has a brain to think with and answer the questions. Also, Trump never answered any of the questions even when prompted several times!
Like one of the individuals who commented, I also eagerly awaited your email on the day after the debate. As expected, your reporting was fair and measured. I don’t think you were dooming Biden’s campaign nor were you projecting Trump’s victory. You provided historical context with regard to debate performances and astute analysis of options going forward for both candidates. You were clear that nothing has been sealed for either campaign.
The day after, Biden came back with a vengeance and Trump gave us more Trump, riding his perceived wave of triumph. I look forward to your reporting on that.
I think we can all agree that it’s still anyone’s race. Let’s hope Biden gives a much better performance in September.
I
I have never voted for a Democratic presidential candidate.
And I never have, and never will, vote for Trump.
And I agree that Biden looked so old.
But I was amazed that he kept it up for the full duration.
90 minutes of being “on” in front of just a few hundred people would absolutely wear out most folks of any age.
I know he is a career politician, but I was impressed that in that setting he didn’t completely wilt by the end.
And I thought that he was able to put a lot of information into most of his answers. I know that isn’t how you “win” debates (insert eye roll), but as a non supporter I thought his mental faculties were better than I expected.
Who among us has never misspoken?
If you look at the information he stated, not the delivery, then it’s really quite an amazing display of memory. More than I would have expected.
I challenge anybody to remember all of what he said.
The election will be razor-thin, but Joe Biden will be re-elected.